I believe most readers of fantasy (and some historical) fiction would be quite familiar with the depiction of women's breastplates with two separate bulges--one for each breast--as shown in some of the designs on this page (note that I'm NOT specifically blaming this armorer for the designs, especially in light of the clarification you'll see on top of the gallery if you follow the link). In this post, I'm going to discuss why this design is not a good idea on the practical level.
First and most importantly, having two breast-bulges on a solid breastplate would create a concave channel just over the wearer's breastbone. Most blows that strike the breast-bulges on the inner halves (i.e. the halves facing towards the center of the chest) would naturally get deflected into this channel. This becomes a serious problem when the armor has to deal with a powerful upwards thrust; the presence of the channel would tend to direct the thrust towards the middle of the chest and up beneath whatever throat protection the wearer had at the time, whether it be a bevor or a gorget or an aventail. An experienced fighter might actually be able to see this opportunity and exploit it as soon as he/she could engage the breastplate's wearer in a close-range thrusting fight with sword or dagger.
Compare this with a conventional breastplate design where the armor's rounded surfaces are built to deflect all blows in an outward direction. The design doesn't render it absolutely impossible for a thrust to get redirected under the wearer's throat defenses, but at least the likelihood of such an unfortunate event would be much, much lower than if the wearer had a breastplate with two breast-bulges. Moreover, many conventional breastplates (such as the works of Anton Pfeffenhausser displayed here) possess a pronounced vertical keel designed to deflect the opponent's thrusts away from the centerline of the wearer's body--which also means away from the wearer's throat.
As if that wasn't enough, twin-bulged breastplates ignore the anatomical makeup of the female breast itself. To make a long story short, the breast largely consists of fat and modified sweat glands (for the production of milk, that is), and hence it's not nearly as solid as a comparable mass of muscle. So all but the largest breasts can be bound quite flat against the woman's chest without occasioning too much discomfort. In turn, this means a fighting woman probably isn't going to need a breastplate with a chest profile larger than one worn by a fighting man of a similar height and general body shape, and therefore it's quite likely that the woman would simply fit into the man's breastplate with the aid of some padding to make up the slack in the waist and shoulders.
Of course we shouldn't forget to take account of how plate armor is supposed to fit against the body. Breastplates are called "breastplates" for a very good reason: it covers the breast. The waistline on a correctly-fitted breastplate actually doesn't lie on the modern trouser waist (i.e. around the navel), but slightly higher at the bottom of the ribs (that is, the position known as the "natural waist") This marks the very bottom edge of early cuirasses like the Churburg model shown here; later breastplates with articulated faulds (such as the two 15th-century examples shown here) have an additional section below made to protect the kidneys and the hips, which extends down to approximately the height of the hipbone. This feature tends to make a male wearer's torso look a little shorter and his legs a little longer than they really are, but one one hand it's necessary to preserve the armored man's freedom of movement--a lower position for the waistline and/or bottom edge would prevent the man from bending naturally at the waist--while on the other it has the side effect of making the male breastplate perfectly wearable by women, because its high-waisted design places the inevitable chest bulge (note that I'm talking about a singular bulge, not two bulges) in a good position to accommodate the woman's breasts if she were about as tall as or slightly taller than the man for which the breastplate was designed. Further examples of male breastplates with globose chests that would have easily accommodated a woman's torso inside can be seen in this page about 16th-century Imperial armors attributed to the armorer Kolman Helmschmied and this article on the decoration of European arms and armor in the 15th and 16th centuries. Additionally, this picture displays a reproduction armor in the 16th-century Maximilian style, while this image gallery shows a high-quality replica of a 15th-century armor in action; these last two examples give particularly good illustrations of how the chest bulge on their breastplates would fit against the body of a living wearer.
A second aspect of fit that would be worth examining is how closely the armor lies against the wearer's body. High-quality harnesses of plate were obviously made to an exact fit for the customer, which would make it easy for an experienced armorer to build a female armor with just some minor tinkering upon the proportions of a perfectly ordinary male armor. And yet, by the second half of the 15th century, the state of both metallurgy and the economy in Europe had improved to such a degree that plate armor could be produced in larger quantities and at lower prices than ever before. This led to an increasing trend for ordinary soldiers (below the pay grade of men-at-arms) to wear relatively cheap munitions-grade plate armor, principally on the upper half of their bodies. These munitions-grade pieces, being mass-produced rather than individually fitted, were generally made a bit large so that all but the burliest soldiers would be able to wear them without modification; most soldiers thus found their armor somewhat oversized, but for the most part they coped easily by wearing enough padding and/or additional clothing to provide a snug fit for the armor. A woman would have been perfectly able to use the same approach. In fact, if she weren't flat-chested, she would probably have had an easier time hiding her breasts in a munitions-grade breastplate than in the largely unarmored dress of later soldiers!
In conclusion, a female warrior who wants to wear a solid breastplate isn't going to need anything more than a male breastplate sized for a man of about the same height as her. It's hard to find better proof of this idea's practical and aesthetic advantages than these suits of armor . Even medieval artists seem to have understood the principles because this 15th-century depiction of Joan of Arc shows her in male armor without any fear of contradiction!
Edited to add: I've recently been informed (thanks, Matthew Amt!) that ancient Greek and Roman muscle cuirasses actually had a similar fit to medieval European breastplates in that their "waistline" lay noticeably higher than the wearer's navel, so the anatomy depicted on the cuirass was vertically "squashed" compared to the wearer's actual musculature. The pteryges (a skirt made of leather strips) hanging from the bottom of the cuirass) might have been meant to hide this feature in addition to providing a modicum of protection to the thighs.
| | Tiberius Clausewitz Drusus Nero Germanicus ( |
April 14 2008, 13:22:44 UTC 4 years ago
She looked pretty kickass in it. :-)
April 14 2008, 15:35:24 UTC 4 years ago
April 14 2008, 14:47:29 UTC 4 years ago
Another question is how close do these rules follow for leather and chain armors? The real ones, not costume.
TYVM!
April 14 2008, 16:31:29 UTC 4 years ago
I'd leave that to the readers' subjective judgement. If you're asking my own personal opinion, though, I'd say it depends heavily on the size of the woman. A stout seven-foot-tall woman might easily get away with an E (or DD) cup where a lean five-foot-tall woman would have stumbled from all the wobbling that the same size of breasts would cause in the ordinary course of hand-to-hand fighting.
For example, I am quite large, and binding my gals down still probably wouldn't get me into some of these armors.
That you wouldn't get into some means there are still others you're going to fit into--check out the Italian designs in particular among the 15th-century armors and the Helmschmied ones among the 16th-century pieces. And if your mention of "large" refers to your body as a whole rather than just your breasts, of course you should get a fairly large guy's armor in the first place! ;)
Another question is how close do these rules follow for leather and chain armors?
For leather, it depends on what sort of leather you're talking about. Check this post for a quick overview--and once you're done with that, it'd become fairly obvious that the design of boiled leather breastplates would largely follow the same rules as their plate counterparts while buff coats would simply have to fit snugly over whatever ordinary clothing the wearer has at the time, especially if the wearer is planning on using the coat as a foundation garment for a plate harness.
Mail is a bit trickier. For maximum protection and convenience (and historical accuracy!), a coat or hauberk or haubergeon (or whatever) of mail would have to fit quite closely around the wearer's torso, and for women it'd be hard to decide whether the close fit should be measured according to the chest circumference with bound breasts or the one with unbound breasts. Still, I'd favor binding the breasts as tightly as you can without impeding breathing and movement because you simply need to immobilize them as much as possible if you don't want them to shift your balance in an undesired and unpredictable manner at a critical moment in the fighting. You can then fit the mail to the measurement thus produced.
(Of course, modern women would be well advised to forego the inconvenience of binding and use a good, close-fitting sports bra instead.)
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April 14 2008, 18:14:07 UTC 4 years ago
April 14 2008, 23:13:46 UTC 4 years ago
April 15 2008, 01:23:12 UTC 4 years ago
Although that does raise a question for me (TMI warning?): I don't have particularly huge breasts - I'm a c-cup - but I can only 'bind' them - using a sports bra - to a certain point without making it very uncomfortable and inhibiting movement; with my tightest sports bra on, there's still about an inch or more of 'protuberance,' though I'm stocky and have a decently-sized ribcage. So what I'm wondering is if a normal guy's armor would account for that amount of bulging going on? What about women with larger chests?
Also, I noticed the bit with the edge of the armor not hitting at the waist - I take it people would have to be within a couple inches of each other to use each other's armor? Obviously they wouldn't be swapping armor if there's a foot's difference, but about how near in size would they have to be to use it effectively?
Well, thanks for taking the time to post; definitely gave me some food for though :).
April 15 2008, 02:41:13 UTC 4 years ago
I'm sure the answer is yes. "Normal guy's armor" would include a wide variety of styles and designs at any given place and time during the Age of Plate, and you would certainly have been able to choose between them if you had enough money. And don't forget that the guys who whore armor tended to be larger and more muscular than the average of their time, so there's going to be a great deal more room inside than most people would imagine--and more so for the cheap munitions-grade models, since most of them seem to have been made deliberately too large in a "one size fits all" approach.
What about women with larger chests?
As I said in my answer to
I take it people would have to be within a couple inches of each other to use each other's armor? Obviously they wouldn't be swapping armor if there's a foot's difference, but about how near in size would they have to be to use it effectively?
For very high-quality custom-made pieces, yes, you'll have to be very close to the wearer's size in the first place if you want to have a decent chance of being able to wriggle into the armor. Low-end (though not necessarily low-quality) munitions-grade armor, on the other hand, wasn't usually fitted to an individual, and in fact their design was meant to fit as many kinds of people and body shapes as possible within a given range of sizes, so like I said you'll just have to pick a size that's not too small for you and pad or stuff the insides to fit.
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April 28 2008, 01:09:42 UTC 4 years ago
April 28 2008, 10:31:00 UTC 4 years ago
That point of pedantry aside, the breast-protectors worn in modern fencing are designed with significantly different objectives from what we find in the design of breastplates meant to be worn as armor. The modern breast-protector is not required to withstand attacks delivered with great force through the medium of a heavy blade; even the strongest thrusts it can be expected to encounter in daily use are probably not strong enough to skitter all the way up under the fencing mask's bib and into the wearer's throat if that thrust got deflected rather than absorbed by the breast protector. Moreover, I wouldn't expect a modern fencer to intentionally seek to work his/her weapon up beneath a female opponent's throat protection, in stark contrast to medieval and Renaissance harness-fighting techniques that do actively try to circumvent the bevor/gorget in order to strike a lethal hit. Different circumstances, different principles, and (naturally) different results.
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
June 27 2008, 20:46:11 UTC 3 years ago
A few words from Pitbullarmory.com
Howdy Friends, This Essay written about womens breastplates is all true. My female BPs are not made for fighing in for all the reasons listed above. Women fit into Male breastplates just fine. I have a great time makeing the female ones WITH THE BOOBS though and enjoy forming steel to the female body. So yes all the info is true but I think we all know what BP all the guys will be looking at the most......THE ONES WITH THE BOOBS :)Take care
The Pitbull
June 28 2008, 15:11:50 UTC 3 years ago
Re: A few words from Pitbullarmory.com
As long as you don't try to pass the booby ones as combat-ready armor, know ye that I have no grudge against you.Anonymous
July 5 2008, 21:08:04 UTC 3 years ago
BreastPlate
‘Scuse me if seem to be treating this thread in a frivolous fashion. I’m actually pretty impressed with the research Clausewitz and those who replied put into this topic of female breastplates. But your potential readers haven’t put all that effort into it. For ninety percent of them (At least), the word `Breastplate’ calls to mind one image: Xena!(I'm Dark at FM. I didn't realize this comment forum was not part of FM.)
July 6 2008, 07:00:52 UTC 3 years ago
Re: BreastPlate
Which is why I'm putting all this effort into educating them....March 3 2009, 07:10:15 UTC 3 years ago
Hi there
Hi guys,I just joined your forum because Im doing research on historical armor. I dont sell BPs with udders because they are good to fight in. I just like to make them. Strange enough some people like to buy them. You ladies wear shirts right? and theres bumps on the shirt as you stand there right? My BPs are the same basicly as you standing there in a shirt. Dont buy them if you dont want to its no problem at all, its not meant to offend anyone nor should it, the answer is simple. I like dogs, I have an armored dog, I like squirrels, I have an armored squirrel, I like boobs........... you get it.Take care
Pitbull
December 24 2009, 00:36:01 UTC 2 years ago
Re: Hi there
Ooops. I obviously forgot to add the clarification that this post isn't specifically directed at your armory. Done that now.Anonymous
June 3 2009, 20:54:48 UTC 2 years ago
Why this doesnt matter in fiction
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/MaAnonymous
September 11 2009, 21:36:29 UTC 2 years ago
Re: Why this doesnt matter in fiction
You forgot http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/MaAnonymous
1 year ago
Anonymous
July 11 2009, 07:38:05 UTC 2 years ago
In your intent, you are thorough and correct. But when you say flatly "this design is not a good idea no matter how we look at it," you lose some of your credibility.
Your tactical assessments of a breastplate as regards use in combat is correct. However, even putting aside the above comment regarding its use in fictional works, there are several purposes to female breastplates having the form of the wearers unbound breasts - even if they are, in fact, bound underneath.
First, comes the considerations of ceremonial armour, where style comes over form; people are willing to weight their ceremonial armour with gold surfacework, unnecessary flourishes, gems, etc., and as such it is unlikely that their vanity would not extend to breasts as well.
Secondly, in a Joan of Arc scenario (female martial leader/figurehead turning the tide of a war based largely on morale) it becomes quite important for said female to be recognizably female - from a distance, even. (Not every civilization/war paradigm used banners/standards, after all.) Also, it would probably have been inappropriate for the 15-century artists to display Joan's breasts in the example you gave, considering they were religious monks in a time of sexual taboo and repression, she was a national hero and saint, as well as the fact that they probably never laid on eye on either her or her armour. Their fear of contradiction is much lessened by the fact that most knew her by reputation only, as well.
I could write more, but I've pretty much already made myself look like an ass and a jerk by being overly combatative and nitpicky.
Good assessment of why boob-plate armour is a bad idea when you actually want it to protect your chest. Cheers.
July 11 2009, 14:50:33 UTC 2 years ago
As for Joan of Arc, though, I don't think it's just because the illustrators were monks. The idea that warrior women simply donned men's armor is consistently found not only in art (just look at all those medieval depictions of Amazons) but also in literature, and the absolute lack of evidence to the contrary forces me to conclude that breast-bulges on breastplates was simply never a significant presence on field armors.
Still, the idea brings up an entirely unrelated possibility: in a science-fiction (or space opera) setting placed in our future, the influence from our era's artwork might make the people expect female ceremonial armor to actually have breast-bulges.
2 years ago
Anonymous
October 6 2009, 14:39:45 UTC 2 years ago
November 26 2009, 03:53:45 UTC 2 years ago
Any armorer truly skilled in his trade would know what that change in shape would entail and would warn a woman against it. A woman who was really serious and wanted to be shown simply as a good warrior would of course wear normal armor. Any armor built to be so overtly shaped like a female torso was most likely so the woman wouldn't be mistaken as a man when wearing the armor. The only women who would wear it would essentially be women who cared more about people KNOWING they were a woman and wanted them to know that a woman was fighting. The glory of being a woman in a role traditionally ONLY for men probably outweight the (probably not as slight as it may have seemed) risks of the blade being deflected up to the throat.
Considering the time period when these armors were used in battle any woman who could openly show that she was a woman during a war was going to want to show off that she is in fact a woman who has permission to be there.
Obvious exceptions would be Joan of Arc who wasn't in it for the glory, and any army that regularly employed female soldiers. Obviously they didn't need to the special armor since they were nothing special, and they would care more about their lives than people knowing for certain of their gender.
2 years ago
Anonymous
December 16 2009, 15:42:42 UTC 2 years ago
Belgariad by David Eddings
David Eddings in the Belgariad actually discusses this fact when the princess tries to get this armorer to make her a breastplate, and his first design is as flat as a man's. The princess objects, asking for armor that accentuates her breasts. He explains to her all these reasons why it's a bad idea to have breastplate designed to accentuate her feminine attributes.She convinces him to make her way on the grounds that she isn't going into combat and that it's mainly so she can look inspiring for her soldiers. He does agree, but he grumbles all the while that he's a skilled armorer not a bloody costume designer.
Anonymous
December 23 2009, 03:01:29 UTC 2 years ago
December 23 2009, 16:15:24 UTC 2 years ago
Not to mention that a ridge or rolled edge would hardly be of any use when the throat protection (bevor, standard, aventail, or whatever) is worn outside the breastplate, in which case a decent opponent is going to be able to slip a thrust into the gap anyway. If the ridge or raised edge is thick enough to stop even such a dedicated attack, then it's probably thick enough to make the armor very uncomfortable to wear!
Anonymous
December 24 2009, 01:29:05 UTC 2 years ago
Breasts
Hi there, All breastplates have a roll at the neck opening to catch thrusts. Some times I leave the roll open to make a better stop. I like the idea about a stop rib also I may have to try that out. Lastly, any gorget or bevor should be worn under the breastplate, boobs or no boobs thrusts would be up in there. Happy Hollidays.Take care
Pitbull
Screened comment
1 year ago
November 10 2010, 12:03:45 UTC 1 year ago
my opinion
I think that the issues you are talking about here is just en effect for the universal problem: men vs women. Men have their custom armors that depict strong muscles so women had to have "bulges"... Of course that in battle such an armor wouldn't actually be efficient... but it could symbolize that importance of a woman on the battle field... This issue is mainly related to a psychological state of mind...Escorts Amsterdam
March 16 2011, 19:15:11 UTC 1 year ago
Re: my opinion
Well, muscle cuirasses were never universal even in their Greco-Roman heyday, and in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance they were almost exclusively seen on Neoclassical parade armours, so I don't see how this point would be relevant for actual combat armour.